"Unsatisfactory" EICR for underrated MCB (20 Amp instead of 32 Amp)

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Ardent, Aug 29, 2020.

  1. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    NAPIT stands for National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers. So they should be the best bet.
    Back in (my) day 2391 was a condition of membership. But it’s all diluted now.
    Today I think all you need is 2 GCSEs and a budgerigar (and a few hundred ££) and you’re in.
    seneca, sparky Si-Fi and Sparkielev like this.
  2. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    And a neon screwdriver
    seneca likes this.
  3. Hfs

    Hfs Screwfix Select

    That’s because they pretty much do. They advertise the best, they have the best brand awareness and have been established longer than most.
  4. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Margaret Thatcher got rid of the closed shop, the Unions for years vetted their members and were the controlling organisation as to quality, they had faults, but they did a necessary job, the scheme providers in essence replaced the Unions, and it is very much like the closed shop, and I have questioned in the past to if they are technically breaking the closed shop ban?

    However for an EICR you do not need to be a scheme member, so be it NAPIT or any other commercial replacement for the Unions they have no control over the results of an EICR.
    I have not scrutinised the requirements, but needs level 3, and GCSE is level 2, so not quite, but my maths was not that good, I would imagine numbers which would turn out to be letters like J, so I returned to collage, and it transpired three 'A' levels was £10 and one over £100 so I took three, and I was dismayed at what the 'A' level books said.

    I suspect @Bazza can do a better job inspecting than some can do inspecting and testing? We know what is really a danger and potentially danger, and this does not really line up with what we are told is permitted. But the big question remains, since 230 volt is potentially dangerous if some items is damaged, how can any one say some one else it wrong when they issue a C2? A C1 is easy to define, but there is no laid down rules which say some thing like either 2 protective items must fail or the item has to be classed as double with the [​IMG] double insulated sign on it. If there was such a rule it would be easy, but if easy why do you need an electrician?

    If some thing has been changed or degraded from the design then C1 or C2 can be awarded, however if it is as designed, the question arises can we take the designers to court as they have designed some thing potentially dangerous. If electricians issuing a C2 were required to attend court for the court to decide if the original design was potentially dangerous may be they would not be so fast issuing C2's.

    But this is the odd case out it seems, how can anyone fail a circuit because the protective device is too small? Worse case scenario is you loose power, and since it feeds a 13A fuse, even that can't happen. It is so blatantly incorrect, and as a result, because it is so daft, one has to ask, are you sure it actually says that?

    But it does seem we must see a raise in homelessness before the government sees some sense. And makes the law workable.
  5. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    That's could be true, but to say nic sparks are better than everyone else is wrong, they are all scam merchants and just want to take your money, and I reckon most of the bodge ups I have attended apart from DIY is done by an NIC spark, I reported one a few year ago to NIC for screwing over an old lady and as usual they did **** all
  6. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I agree. Maybe the autonomous standing of these bodies is to blame. Nobody is governing their behaviour. UKAS set out rules that these bodies must comply with to be able to operate yet nobody is appointed to ensure that they do. We need an independent organisation to look at the entire system. It is unregulated in that respect. Autonomy has no place in this industry. Someone needs to be able to weald a big stick. There is none.
  7. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    @MGW. You have highlighted another problem with the EICR in that the IET focus on danger rather than safety. There is a subtle difference. The codes we are given C1 Immediate Danger, C2 Potential Danger are inappropriate terms. What we have in our homes buried in our walls and running through our lofts and floor voids is a potentially dangerous energy at 230V. It is always potentially dangerous so the terminology for a C2 is inappropriate. What we SHOULD be focussing on instead is SAFETY. Is the installation safe. As it's always potentially dangerous we make it safe by insulating the copper conductors, adopting rules to be followed to install it and generally make it safe. So my point is the codes should be worded from the safety aspect not the danger aspect. C1 would then be unsafe, C2 improvement necessary, and C3 improvement recommended. This removes the ridiculous reference to danger which is omnipresent and focuses on the real issue, whether its safe. I have made this suggestion endlessly on forums including the IET but people just cant seem to understand the subtle differences in meaning.
  8. sinewave

    sinewave Screwfix Select

    Interesting to hear the outcome OP?
  9. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    The model forms in Appendix 6 are easy to follow so the visual inspection is really just a checklist of tickboxes. They even refer you to the appropriate Reg, so there isn't a proper excuse for getting it wrong.

    The testing however, needs much more skill to allow the results to be correctly interpreted. I think this is where the scam providers do not provide support and guidance. They are too interested in ensuring peeps meet the entry requirements so they can grab the cash IMHO.
  10. ATPSparks

    ATPSparks New Member

    Although not a requirement to be a registered contractor to carry out EICR's, but competent and experienced time served Electricians, it is preferred that the contractor is a member of a governing body. Unfortunately the estate/letting agents do not check the credentials of most the contractors they employ as per normal its pitched on price. So just an observation that the screen print of the two EICR's carried out by the NICEIC Approved Contractor happen to be Green and not the Fully Approved Contractor RED! This would suggest that if the EICR's are genuine NICEIC certificates, Green Certs are only used by contractors who are working outside of their scope of enrolment whether they are Domestic Installer or Approved Contractor, as described on the NICEIC Portal. This is why the NICEIC are in the process of inviting there registered contractors to join a list showing who is registered to carry out EICR work as apparently not every contractor is, maybe including the one you have employed?

    BUT will it be free of charge or is this just another add on to membership fee's?????
  11. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I do see @unphased point on the potential dangerous but improvement necessary does not help, from the first time I ever looked at a PIR as they were called then, the problem was always if installed to a previous edition how does any new guy what was allowed with that edition? If we compare to an MOT, there are some items which were not fitted when designed, but unless very old and it would distract from it's ability to look original, old vehicles needed to be updated with the items, rear guard fog warning, and seat belts for example.

    I remember the problem with the Reliant Regal, only place the seat belt could be attached to comply with regulations was the chassis, but the seat was attached to the body, so in an accident the seat would go forward but the seat belt did not cutting the person in half. I don't remember the outcome.

    But the point is BS 7671 is written to comply with Building regulations, CENELEC and HSE requirements, so these have all been updated, so although the property may comply with the version of BS 7671 current at the time, it may today have a problem with HSE requirements, since most of it was written in 1989 it is likely if designed after that date it will be compliant.

    But is likely good enough? We are in essence doing a risk assessment, and we are really looking for anything which has degraded over time. But if we say it is potential dangerous, and it was installed by near enough electrics in 1998 can the owner go to near enough electrics and say I want this fixing free of charge as it is potential dangerous and always has been. If not then it was not potential dangerous, if they can, think it's time to retire.
  12. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    The mindset of many is wrong. The number of electricians who go around telling people they need to change their CU to a metal one is alarming. They clearly have no concept of any of this do they. As far as their tiny misguided minds are concerned it is true.
  13. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    The guidance states if the consumer unit is on an exit route or under wooden stairs, it would be a C2 if plastic. If it is not on an escape route, C3.
  14. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Guidance where? I haven't seen guidance that specifically mentions that?
  15. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    I wondered that to Roy.
  16. The guidance is, if an escape route or under stairs it is a C3. If unsatisfactory connections are found it is a C2.
    Any decent spark will always check tightness of all connections when they have the lid off the consumer unit.
  17. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    Yes, we have read the words. But most of us would like to know where this “guidance” is written. From that it should be possible to determine which BS7671 regulation applies?
  18. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    Sorry, yes. Under stairs or exit route C3, no code otherwise, but worthy of comment.
  19. sparky Si-Fi

    sparky Si-Fi Screwfix Select

    Check out NIC NAKS google review

    says it all really, 95% of people cant be wrong

  20. Hfs

    Hfs Screwfix Select

    Out of 46000 part p registered electricians 34000 are registered with certsure who own the NICEIC and Elecsa. Certsure average around 600 thousand notifications a year.

    Trust pilot has been around for about 13 years.....so in the time trust pilot has been around, Certsure members have carried out on average 7.8 million notifiable jobs. Out of 7.8 million notifiable Jobs in 13 years, 95 people have taken to Trustpilot to leave a bad review. To put that into perspective that’s roughly 0.0012% or put another way 1 bad review for every 82000 notifiable jobs. Let’s not forget not every job is going to be notifiable so this is just a snippet. So the 95 people might not be wrong but no where near a true reflection of the scale of business undertaken.

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