I was taught that to be an engineer you needed a level 5 education or over, HND, HNC, Degree etc. However in USA the driver of a steam train was called an engineer, and my own dad started as a simple fitter, but after being an engine room artificer, chief petty officer, he returned after war and ended up as the technical superintendent in a steel works power station, he did not have a degree, but was clearly an engineer. My father-in-law was the project director of Liverpool hospital board on the electrician systems and again no degree but again clearly an electrical engineer. I do have a degree and would class myself as an electrical engineer, but even before getting the degree I was doing work which was not really simple electrical work, designing systems both to fit myself and others to install, often using PLC control and I wrote the programs. Having seen how complex some heating and ventilating systems are, I would fully agree the people designing and installing these systems are in the true sense engineers, the integration of IT, gas, plumbing, and electrical skills is well beyond that skill required by any single trade. They are not simply tradesmen but are truly engineers even if no degree. However if I employ a heating engineer for example what level of skill should I expect, same with a motor vehicle engineer, I would expect a motor vehicle engineer to have more skill than a mechanic, likely including some design, building a special trailer to carry plane wings for example, not simply repairing it. So am I old fashioned, what do others see as engineers?