What version of leave is acceptable as leave?

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by chippie244, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. Crowsfoot

    Crowsfoot Screwfix Select

    The EU are in the driving seat in the "deal making game" not the UK.
    TMs fought hard and worked hard for the only deal the UK was ever likely to get.
  2. Odd Bodkin

    Odd Bodkin Active Member

    The DUP should take a big piece of blame when the finger pointing really gets going: Arlene Foster is one of those bloody-minded Unionists who start a negotiation by saying 'no' to anything the other side proposes, however reasonable it may be, and simply adds 'no surrender!' as her default position when pressed for a change of heart.
    It's down to her Stormont is deadlocked and it's down to her that Parliament can't get past the damned backstop.
    Pretty good going, really. You almost admire her stubborn inflexibility.
    Actually, i hate the sight of her.
    Vixere likes this.
  3. Vixere

    Vixere Active Member

    How could it have been any other way, with one side not only massively larger but also held by a set of fundamental principles that they could never renege on? And who hadn't even caused this crisis.

    I had quite a bit of respect for May for what she was misguidedly trying to achieve, right up to the point when she made 'that' speech trying to claim she was on the peoples' side and blaming Parliament for the chaos. I felt I witnessed someone who was taking it personally, reacting angrily like a cornered animal and in a manner completely devoid of integrity. The genuine sympathy I had for her up until that point immediately vaporised.
  4. Vixere

    Vixere Active Member

    Mogg is quite fond of her it seems. They do have an awful lot in common.
  5. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Yes, it needs more bread!
  6. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Since TM's announcement yesterday, both TM and the DUP are irrelevant, the Government will have a new leader by this time next week and the DUP will be sidelined by the House with their input.
  7. Harry Stottle

    Harry Stottle Screwfix Select

    Unfortunately Teresa May is a remainer at heart, but she deserves credit for trying so hard to unite both sides. Where I feel let down by her is the way she shackled David Davies, a tough negotiator, that sent a signal to Michel Barnier et al that the UK is not going to walk away, but will accept a poor deal. That goes against TM's assertion in the early stages that "no deal is better than a bad deal"
    The only thing that will satisfy me and millions of others is "no deal"
  8. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    Really??? I think you are actually completely wrong!
    Tbh, that sounded more like an Irish Republican rant of propaganda spin.
    What part of the backstop has been altered? Why should the DUP suddenly sign??
    The DUP and some other parties and independents in NI are not in agreement with signing up (committing) to just anything that then cannot be reversed.
    Plenty of Westminister agree with the DUP.
    Also I don’t think the 10 MPs have affected most of the voting and TM has been often voted massively against in the house.
    Make no excuses using other ‘outsiders’ parties, the truth is your MPs in Westminister as a whole are completely useless and spineless and clearly many are lacking brains.
    Wise up and stop blaming the DUP, who frankly are clearly more experienced in dealing with this. Nigel Dodds and Arlene Foster are highly educated people and frankly Dodds and Wilson’s comments have been some of the most honest and accurate statements both inside and outside Westminister.
    TM has been useless
  9. Do they have ALLSORTS of DA things in common third person.
  10. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Harry, it will be a rough ride but the alternative will be to allow the EU to walk all over us, we will never be taken seriously as a political force again. I agree, we should just crash out and to hell with the EU.
    Heat and Deleted member 11267 like this.
  11. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    Yes, I would say they both tell the truth and stick to their principles.
    Also both agree not to allow the EU to make permanent division possible.
  12. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    What shackled Davis was his stupidity and vanity.
    btiw2 likes this.
  13. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    The only real difficulty the DUP have with TMs deal with the EU is the backstop.
    The rest of deal, however poor, is accepted by the DUP if a majority in Westminister support it.
    So I see no massive input or any flaw in what the DUP have been standing for in Westminister.
    Teresa May just messed up with the EU and then got nowhere when she tried to renegotiate with the EU
  14. Baxi Boy

    Baxi Boy Active Member

    We didn’t vote for a deal-just to leave full stop! The EU would have no say,told us what is “allowed” far too long.
    Heat likes this.
  15. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Don't forget that it is the votes in the House of the DUP members that keep the current government in power with a working majority. When the government wants to pass legislation it relies on the DUP. By contrast, when Parliament, as a no partisan group proposes legislation, it does not need the DUP votes as any support will come from across the house spectrum.
  16. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    They will vote with the government on many issues anyhow though
  17. Vixere

    Vixere Active Member

    How did NI vote in the EU Ref, Heat? What about the willy of the people?

    Anyway, isn't it getting really exciting now? The increasingly desperate government is trying a sneaky split of the PD and the WA, presumably to try and nobble any chance of a longer Brexit-exit than that recently offered by the EU.

    Again and again and again, it's not the merit of the Gov's deal with which they are trying to entice support for their MV, but to simply close off all other avenues. And let's look at the merit of her deal - is there ANYBODY on here, for example, who wants May's deal?

    No, nor me. Yet it's all they have to offer.

    Good lord.
  18. ALLSORTS of dirty dealing going on.
    Baxi Boy and Heat like this.
  19. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    But we have to remember it wasn’t a vote for each part of the U.K. to decide if each were for in or out. It was a U.K. vote.
    N.I. has more support for leaving now. Some of my friends who voted to remain, only did because of fear of economics, but actually have no love for the EU and just want out now.
    Those from NI that still wish to remain are not ignored and the DUP has stood by commitments to open borders including no border on Irish Sea (as presently is) and that is actually what was agreed with the ‘Good Friday Agreement’.
    TM just made a hash of everything, but no surprise
    Baxi Boy likes this.
  20. btiw2

    btiw2 Screwfix Select

    Only children and those with severe personality disorders think that they should always get exactly what they want.
    Most sane people realise that the world doesn't revolve around them by their late teens.

    We're happy to blame politicians for not reaching agreement, but who broke all mirrors?
    If this forum is representative then haven't we shown that we aren't able to reach a compromise either?

    Remainers - it turns out we're in an extremely large minority.
    "Just leave on WTO terms" brexiteers - it's almost certain that you're in a large minority too.[1]

    TM's agreement[2] is a sensible middle ground.
    Does it give anybody what they wanted? No. But neither does it really take away much that either side cared about.
    • Free trade on goods? Great. That's the manufacturing and (some of the) farming industry sorted.
    • An end to "free movement"? That's another group of people satisfied.
    • Rights of Europeans living in the UK, and Brits already living overseas? Jean-Pierre, Herman and Mr & Mrs John Bull will be pleased.
    • Access to European nuclear material for cancer treatment? Still there.
    • Science funding preserved? Oh, okay - maybe not everyone will be happy.

    TM has an agreement that attempts to find a compromise and yet MPs and citizens are having tantrums that it isn't exactly what they want.

    You asked a question
    I do.

    If I could decide, and nobody else's opinion mattered, then TM's agreement is not what I would choose.
    But it turns out that sometimes we have to act like grown ups and stop throwing hissy fits[3] because we don't get our way.

    Oh yeah. It's the 29th. "Happy independence day!" to all the Brexiteers who haven't been following the news.

    [1] The leave.eu webpage BEFORE the vote is accessible from the archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20160620232735/https://leave.eu/en/faqs/faqanswers
    See the bit about us staying in the EEA? And how the bit about WTO terms is under their "worst case scenario"?
    Just, you know, for the amnesiacs out there.

    [2] Just because everyone calls it a "deal" - we should remember that it's not actually a deal. That gets negotiated later. Gosh! Won't that be fun? Several more years of this. I can't wait.

    [3] My definition of "hissy fit" includes threatening the life of the RH Anna Soubry - admittedly it's a fairly broad definition.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
    Jord86, chippie244 and Vixere like this.

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