Who would like the Boris

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Devil's Advocate, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Harry Stottle

    Harry Stottle Active Member

    I find it hard to think of many sincere politicians, in fact only one springs to mind and that's Frank Field. My distrust for them stems from the fact that most are lawyers. I do in fact like Boris, he's injected fresh air into politics, but I still don't believe he's sincere in his remarks.
     
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  2. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    As a breed, they are hardly more insincere than the average population. Despite what may be their very best intentions, virtually all politicians need to distort their views to some extent to please their electorate.

    (How many senators in the USA are true Christians? Not nearly as many as who claim to be...)

    And the vast majority of MPs are sincerely in the job to do 'the right thing for the country' (as they see it).

    But when it comes to blatant insincerity, Boris is right up there; I cannot think of a single other politician (other than, perhaps, Farage) who is driven by his own personal agenda and will lie and distort with impunity towards that aim.

    It is astonishing that Boris is still getting away with the "He's highly intelligent but a maverick - gosh, ain't he fun" self-imposed label.

    He's an utter hypocrite, a lying devious back-stabbing manipulator with no political morals.
     
  3. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    As much as I dont want him as PM, I think you have to put Corbyn in the very sincere category.

    He says what he believes, and wants. Whether you like it or not is a different question. He doesnt waver from his beliefs. Compare that to the likes of May, and many others, who change opinions to garner support.

    Now cue all the attacks, suggesting I am supporting him and his policies, as opposed to just understanding him after listening and thinking. Sincerity gets confused by blind faith.
     
  4. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    Extreme is exactly that. Too far on 1 side, or the other. But add maybe a right wing who want extreme policies too?

    But I dont think Brexit itself is the extremist view, it is how it was promoted by a few for their own interests. Take Boris as the example? The question of the thread.
     
  5. Lanc

    Lanc Active Member


    Really???

    What part of his 'stance' on Trident do you consider sincere? Total hypocrite, on a par with Boris, I'm afraid.
     
  6. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    Simply he believes it.

    Dont fall into the trap of so many and assume I support it.

    I just recognise he says what he believes, which is sincere. Couod you ever say that about Boris?

    Right or wrong is the purpose of voting.
     
  7. There is NOTHING sincere about Corbyn!

    He's been anti-EU for years, but all of a sudden his Labour party isn't!
     
  8. btiw2

    btiw2 Active Member

    When considering who would make a good PM I think there are some hurdles that an MP needs to overcome before becoming the first amongst equals.

    1. Not be evil
    I mean proper evil - not just 'I disagree with them'.
    Some US politicians seem to be lacking in basic humanity.
    They're like comic book villains.

    2. Not be a moron
    This is easy to test. The politician needs to have above average intelligence.
    My test for average? Me.
    I want my PM to be smarter than me.
    Surely, not too much to ask!

    3. Have principles
    I don't have to agree with their principles - that's up to voters.
    But if my PM doesn't really have any principles, then how can the voters trust that a PM's principles won't change after they've voted for that party's MP?

    4. Principles align with those of the citizens
    We don't vote for PM. A PM is chosen.
    The principles of the PM that is chosen should align with those of the electorate.

    These aren't high hurdles.

    Who fails these tests?
    1. I can't think of any evil British politicians. I can think of some venal politicians, but that's not quite the same thing.
    2. Smarter than me? Not a tough hurdle. Saying that (and I may be wrong) but I think I'm smarter than either Diane Abbott and Michael Gove. I'm not as smart as most other politicians and I'm certainly not as clever as Boris. But, yeah, I reckon I could take Gove or Abbott.
    3. Lacking principles? Boris? Yes, Boris - I'm looking at you. Running a country is not the same as an Eaton debating society. You actually have to have a principles. Ambition is not the same as virtue.
    4. Sorry Ken Clarke. You seem to be a nice, intelligent and honest guy. If it weren't for the Brexit thing, then I wouldn't mind if the Conservatives picked you as PM. But, can't happen now. Soz.

    Does Mrs. May pass my tests? Yes (although her Damascene conversion to Brexit seems a little unprincipled - but let's give her the benefit of the doubt eh?).

    So, I'll be happy with most of the options for PM - except Mr Gove and Mr Johnson.

    Ideally we'd have an economically literate PM given than the country is going to be embarking on this really challenging Brexit path - but I've tried to keep my reply within the bounds of the possible.

    Apologies DA if this answer is 'balanced' - I know you consider balance to be one of my vices.
     
  9. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    You have answeed yourself.

    He has been anti EU, and he still is. His party is divided on the opinion, as are the Tories. That makes him sincere on the subject.

    You have let your dislike of him affect your thinking of what he actually says. You dont have to like or agree with somebody to understand their comments. But to dismiss without understanding is where most problems on this subject lay.
     
  10. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    Sorry, but regardless of brexit viewpoint, Ken Clarke is by far the best candidate for PM on the Tory side. Well balanced, intelligent and experienced. And brave enough to say what he thinks. Would I vote Tory if he was PM? This might amaze a few, but probably yes. But then I still have the quandry of the MP in my constituency that I could never vote for.
     
  11. btiw2

    btiw2 Active Member

    Is he?

    Under Mrs. Thatcher I think corporation tax was between 50% and 34% (Google it - I could be wrong on the exact numbers).
    Labour's manifesto wanted corporation tax to be roughly 26%[1] and that's still lower than when the Conservative party (kinda) won the 2010 election.
    Under Mrs. Thatcher the basic rate of tax was higher than the proposed basic rate of tax in the Labour manifesto.
    Under Mrs. Thatcher there were no student tuition fees - there was even a grant available for poorer students (although optional loans were available too).

    So Jeremy Corbyn is economically to right of Mrs. Thatcher?
    Wait. What? That can't be correct.... but why not? The numbers seem to say that.

    I hear people tell me that Jeremy Corbyn is economically to the extreme left.
    I can't help but think: If I were to the economic right of Thatcher in 91, and stayed true to my principles, then I'd be considered a raving commie by now.

    What's happened?

    I don't know.
    Perhaps our society has just been systematically nudged to the economic right over the last couple of decades.
    Perhaps people just believe the portraits painted by our media without actually checking numbers.
    Perhaps we don't look at where somebody stands, but the direction they plan to move in from the current position.

    [1] Bear in mind for UK business owners corporation tax is a credit against divvies - so this mainly hits foreign companies. Foreign companies which seem to have decided that corporation tax is optional anyway. But that's another argument.
     
  12. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    During the eleven years that Maggie was in power she more than halved the standard rate of corporation tax.
    Took it down from the inherited 52% to 25% by the time she was ousted. That's quite a steady declining trend well accustomed for those who economically lean to the right of the spectrum.
    Corby, on the other hand (perhaps not entirely attributed to Corby, his reigns may well have been pulled a bit) wants to increase CT, straight off the bat by 7% if he gets the opportunity which is traditionally a lefty economic policy.

    You wouldn't be trying to mislead some on here, are you?
     
  13. btiw2

    btiw2 Active Member

    I don’t remember it being at 25% (& can’t be bothered to google it on my phone), but fair enough, let’s say it was. So basically the same as Labour’s proposal?

    This was my last point. You’re judging Thatcher, not on what she thought was the correct value - but the direction in which she moved.

    If 25%(ish) is the correct value then Thatcher and Corbyn agree. Which seems weird.

    Corbyn was an MP in the easily 90s. He must have argued that Thatcher was wrong - yet now he’s at the same place and is considered ultra left.

    Abolishing tuition fees requires a “magic money tree” now, but didn’t under Thatcher?

    I’m not sure what it means. I just think it’s interesting. Maybe Thatcher would be considered a lefty now. Dunno.
     
  14. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    You're not fooling anyone, JoT.
    Not even yourself.
     
  15. btiw2

    btiw2 Active Member

    I have a soft spot for KC too.

    But the Tories couldn’t choose a leader that doesn’t represent the expressed will of the people on the most important issue of our time. It’d be flicking the vees to the voters.
     
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  16. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    The direction of travel is surely the only indicator that could be used as a measure of someone's intentions. Well, bar from making them perfectly clear in the first place, as Corby has done, under restraint.
    The desired direction is basically all we have to go on, the push for change one way or the other makes the intent abundantly clear.

    Things would be far simpler if the UK had flip flopped from one dictatorship to the next over recent melenia, then we'd all know for certain where we stood.
    Thankfully, that is not the case. The PM of the time doesn't have the power to do as and what they like.

    Maggie lowered CT, did she achieve her goal, who knows.? I can't be bothered in finding out either way.
    Corbys own party manifesto pledged to increase it, will he achieve his true target if given the chance?
    Who knows, but he sure as he'll wants to head in that direction.
     
  17. btiw2

    btiw2 Active Member

    Ummmm no. There’s an optimal rate, not an optimal direction!

    This is defined by what economists call the Laffer curve (pretend I linked to Wikipedia here - but I’m on a phone so forgive this omission).

    If the rate is too low then the country is leaving foreign tax money on the table (and then we can’t invest in our country’s infrastructure and citizens). If it’s too high then business suffers. We want the correct percentage - not the delta-from-the-current-percentage. That’s just tabloid (& manifesto) nonsense.

    There’s an optimal number. I don’t care about the direction we arrive at that number.
     
  18. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    Then you dont understand the idea of looking at the other side of an opinion.

    I cant name a better candidate, from the available selection, can you?
     
  19. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    Yes, yes, I don't disagree with your position regarding the laffer curve, I'm familiar with the general trends it demonstrate.
    You do seem to have deviated away from your implication that Thatcher, and Corby, share an economically left wing stance.
     
  20. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    :p:p:p:p:p:p:p

    OH JoT, I nearly choked on my cuppa when I read that, you little joker you. Have you considered a career in standup comedy? You could be the next "big thing" A breathe of fresh air on the west end stage. Do you truly believe those words you wrote there?? ( please tell me ( and DA ) you were being ironic):D:D:D:D:D:D
     

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