Why are leavers such numpties

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by chippie244, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. HarDeBloodyHarHar

    HarDeBloodyHarHar Active Member

    Chippie de doo DA, chippie D-day
    My oh my what a wonderful day
    Plenty of sunshine coming your way
    Chippie de doo DA, chippie D-day.

  2. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    Ahh scared to call them Christmas cards ?
    No doubt you’ll be celebrating the Spring Festival next Sunday, whilst the rest of us celebrate Easter,,,,,,,,Whatever. ;);)
  3. Broon

    Broon Active Member

    I think you all need to take some chill pills.

    You are arguing about an argument. Think all Brexit posts should be abandoned at least for like a week or 2.
    Jimmycloutnail and facilities like this.
  4. btiw2

    btiw2 Screwfix Select

    Let me attempt to remove that doubt.

    The U.K. spends roughly £800 billion a year on services. There are roughly 20 million households. [source: ONS]

    The average joe would need to pay roughly £40,000 per year in tax [source: arithmetic]. Some people manage that in the good years, but every year of their working life? That’s hard.

    The average joe’s household doesn’t have an income of £40k per annum, let alone pay that in tax.

    Anyone that hasn’t paid more than £40k per annum in tax is (to some extent) a moocher from government services.

    [statistical aside] All positively skewed distributions will have the property that the mean (add it up and share it) is greater than median (the average joe).

    If you’ve paid an average of £40k per annum in tax (adjusted across your working life), then thank you. You’ve paid more in than the government has paid out. Somebody had to, because the average joe can’t.
  5. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

    Thank-you btiw. I must admit I'm shocked, I thought it were nearer 20 grand. That Goldenboy must be earning a fair screw if he's got kids and pays far more in tax than he receives in benefits.
    Imagine how well the country would do if the likes of Amazon and their like paid in, or if all artisans were chippies.
  6. btiw2

    btiw2 Screwfix Select

    It depends on how you interpret “he receives in benefits”. More than half of benefits are taken by the old (pensions, increased use of expensive NHS treatments).

    Is not wading though poor, sick pensioners a benefit to gb? We’d need to know how he values old people to know if it’s a personal benefit to GB.

    What’s the probability that he or his family will draw a pension or need expensive cancer treatment in their old age? I don’t know. It’s a minority of pensioners than cost the NHS the most.

    But if we assume that people like the services provided by our government, then yes, it’s a big number.

    What can I say? Let’s all hug and thank a rich person? But not Mr Bezos.
    fillyboy likes this.
  7. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    You must have realised that the winterval reference was a quite deliberate nod to the Daily Mail/Sun/UKIP/Britain First "PC gone mad" culture? Surely?

    Or do you really think every single Remainer is a winterval celebrating vegan athiest?
  8. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    Paying £40k p/a as a household in total tax take will not be that unlikely.

    Its not just income tax. There is NI, VAT, Duty on fuel, Council Tax, Stamp Duty plus many others. I pay business rates on top of that too.

    People may be very surprised what they actually pay to the Exchequer.

    And I am confident as a household we are definitely net contributors.
  9. btiw2

    btiw2 Screwfix Select

    Surprised that you doubled down on this.

    Based on the Office for National Statistics’s (ONS’s) Living Costs and Food Survey, the UK median disposable household income was £27,300 in the financial year ending (FYE) 2017” [Source ONS]

    A household can’t pay all its gross income in tax and then still find another 13k to pay in vat, alcohol/baccy/stamp duty. It’s a preposterous claim.

    The statement that you doubted was about “the average joe”. I hope I’ve demonstrated that the average joe is massively subsided - just as filly said.

    I’m not making a political point. Just a statistical one.

    Surely we agree that facts are important - or have you become a Brexiteer?
  10. ManTheVan

    ManTheVan Member

    I think we should thnak all the rich people until they get too rich and then say hang on a minute do you deserve all that?
  11. Isitreally

    Isitreally Super Member

  12. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    Isn't disposable income calculated after tax, NI and council tax etc have already been deducted?

    I thought disposable income was net not gross.

    I am a little dubious as to some of the figures being bandied around here.

    For one if the quoted average figure of £40k per household state spend is true. And the quoted average household gross income of £27k is true then the nation is running at an astronomical deficit.

    I may have missed something crucial out as I am attempting to follow this on my Blackberry on holiday. Iffy wi-fi and all that.
  13. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    But I will stand by my opinion that your average middle income working household will pay in more than they take out.

    Otherwise who exactly is paying for non income households such as non-working households or pensioners.

    And I also think paying £40k+ in total household tax take by the time you factor in income tax, NI, council tax, fuel duty, VAT, insurance tax, vehicle tax, business rates,excise duty, flight levies and many many more is not that extraordinary.
  14. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

    About a billion a week give or take, down from 160 billion a year in 2009 after the crash.
  15. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    Also reading back surely these figures (if correct) are skewed because it is assumed that all households are taking the same and earning the same.

    Surely the absolute reverse is actually true. Those paying in the most ie income tax and NI are actually the ones taking out the least. Ie no housing benefit,pension, jobseekers, free prescriptions etc. Wheras those actually taking out the most ie housing benefit, pension, jobseekers, free prescriptions etc are often contributing zero income tax or NI.

    I don't have a problem with that though. If my tax is being used to help society that's how its meant to be.
  16. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    That's still nothing in terms of the supposed deficit that a claimed tax spend of £40k per household tallies up with a claimed gross household income of £27k runs too. Assuming the first £12k odd is tax free. Then that gives £15k on say 20% tax. So that's say 3k tax a year per household? Chuck in say £5k for all the other taxes. So that's £8k a year for 20m households?

    That's 160bn I think. If tax spend is 800bn that leaves £640bn deficit p/a.

    That's £12bn a week?

    Something doesn't add up.

    Myself I think eitherr the "arithmetic" figure of £40k spend is wrong or the quoted £27k gross household income is wrong. Or more likely both.
  17. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

    Corporation tax?
  18. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    I was just writing the same.

    That may be the case. But that only going to reduce this supposed required £40k tax take?

    There are also many other sources of govt income too.

    I think this £40k figure that the average household needs to contribute is bogus and is skewing this discussion

    I also think this £27k figure on average household is after deductions not before.

    If the average working middle income family aren't shouldering the cost. Who exactly is?

    It isn't the national deficit. It isn't the unemployed or the pensioners.
  19. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    There also is a confusion here over the mean contribution required of supposedly £40k which apparently only comes from household and this quoted figure from the ONS of the median disposable income. This supposed average £27k gross income. Almost certainly infact after tax and NI have been deducted

    I am no mathmetician but I believe that the mean is simply spend needed divided by households. Hence this £40k figure.

    Wheras this ONS median figure is the income of the middle household (ie the 20millionth on their list of 40million). That's is very different to the average.

    I am certain both figures are wildly inaccurate. This quoted £40k is way way too high as it assumes all govt spending is sourced from personal income tax and NI. Secondly this quoted £27k gross income is actually after tax and is the median figure rather than the mean.
  20. Hey Dobbs, I have never ever, not one single time in 15 years, reported anyone on here*. Regardless of how much they did deserve it.

    And I personally think that SF largely manages to successfully tread the fine line between allowing much contentious content, but not any that clearly breaches rules of offensiveness and decency.

    You can shout 'freedom of speech' all you want. The truth is that we are all entitled to think what we want, but we are not necessarily entitled to say it.

    * the odd spam post yonks ago, that's all.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2018

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