Why do we bother trying to do good work?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Comlec, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    This Ad from Indeed dropped into my inbox today...

    Electrical Testing Inspection - London
    £55,200 a year
    _Dedicated electrician required for long term position with highly regarded organisation carrying out electrical installation works and EICR’s for large…

    Here is an extract from the blurb (Full ad - Electrician - London E8 - Indeed.com)
    The Role
    • Carrying out between 2-6 various jobs per day (mixture of EICR’s, Installation, fault finding) or
    • Domestic EICR’s between 3-6 per day depending on size (price of £50+ per EICR) or
    • Replacement of between 2-3 consumer units per day (fixed price of £100 per unit typically 6 ways)
    The candidate is expected to be self employed have own horse, sorry van, and tools and work in Central London!

    Is good to see that there are still graduates of the Arthur Daley Business School out there.

    So glad I retire this year :)
  2. CGN

    CGN Screwfix Select

  3. sparky steve

    sparky steve Screwfix Select

    Maybe guys from this academy will apply;)

    Attached Files:

  4. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Around 2006 my son worked for one of these firms, he lived in his car, did very long days, and was worried an inspection would come back to bite him.

    It seems they are taken to task, it is the reverse where the problem lies, loads of code C2 for no good reason, my son was told never issue a satisfactory, then some one must come to correct it, and then the blame rests on them for any faults left.
  5. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    the above example is also a case of knowing your customer. An EICR should be relied upon by the customer but there should be third party disclaimers so that no other party can rely upon it. In this case irrespective of the quality of the report the electrician does not want to create an obligation to the purchaser of a property where he has worked for the vendor. Solicitors won’t worry about this as they act for vendor and purchaser so the poor sparks can get caught out. I think it should be part of agreed terms of business with a sparks that the EICR is for the customer only and cannot be relied upon by third parties. I would also like this to be included as part of the report. Is this something that The trade bodies have looked at for their members?
  6. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    Arthur Daley ! More like this company is being run by one of failed “The Apprentice” candidates .

    Central london ? Don’t make me laugh . The business friendly mayor has seen to it that every road is jammed by ridiculous road schemes, playing monopoly with carefully designed box junctions designed to collect £100 a minute and when you finally get to the address, the local councils will want to have their share of what remains. Anything upto £7.57/ hour to park in parts of Westminster, that is if you can get one anywhere near by !

    Why do we bother indeed !
    Comlec and Kitfit like this.
  7. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    You forgot to mention the officious porters (sorry concierge) who think they own the building and tell you what you can can't do. The jobs on the 4th floor and no lift. Spending your day driving at 5mph behind some old Prius Uber.
    At the moment the congestion is not to bad but when the Covid restrictions lift and the tourists return it will be back to gridlock as before or more likely worse.
    We buy day permits at £51 for a single zone and you can park in residents bays. But still have to add the uLez and CC taxes plus the fuel to get there and back. So about £85 before getting out the van.
    Actually, to be fair, Westminster Council are only interested in the cash. Whereas some other boroughs just hate cars, vans or anything else that doesn't run on free-range, artisan, plant-based fuel - one reason I don't take work in Hackney.

    For those of you thinking - that's London for you, it's not like that up here, just wait the road scams are coming. Tried and tested model - put in cycle lanes, reduce parking, increase congestion, then you can bring in charges to solve the problem created. And claim it is all there to improve air quality.
    Timbo66 likes this.
  8. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    The real issue is one made by successive governments, rushing in laws after a disaster or public pressure. Often a knee jerk reaction, to be seen as protecting the public, but in reality a vote winner , with no proper consultation or real understanding of the issues, which are often complex. The trade bodies are consulted but any concerns they have are swept aside by their desire to protect jobs for their members and prevent competition. Naturally, the flip side of such accreditation and laws that determine who can do what is that full responsibility is borne by that individual or organisation. You can’t have it both ways.

    An example

    in the pressure to go green and insulate buildings, many built 30plus years ago, cladding standards were rushed through. Following Grenfell disaster, the public has woken up to the issues and rightfully alarmed. Today, the govt has decided that even smaller buildings with defective cladding’s come under the replacement scheme but the cost must be funded by the developers. No doubt faced by £4billion bill many will fold voluntarily. This still does not fix the issue of other fire safety defects.

    another looming issue is one of rental homes. A slew of new regulations that came in 2019/20 puts a great deal of responsibility on the landlord, and quite rightly so. This makes letting unattractive and many in the building/property trade who had a small number of flats as part of their retirement fund, are now thinking of selling up which will only push up rental prices and worse, give rise to cowboys who literally rent out sheds. As one renter said on TV yesterday, complaining simply results in an early eviction. The govt response, they will make such eviction illegal, again rightfully so, but this will make more landlords exit the market.
  9. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    Comlec, you are right, Westminster is not the worst ! Three, nightmare boroughs are, Lambeth, Islington, Camden with Ealing, Southwark and Lewisham vying for the 4th place.

    On the A24 for example, TFL has put bus stops in the middle of the road so when the bus stops you stop too . You can’t turn into any side roads and worse turning left at nights is a nightmare as the cyclist often with no lights are hidden behind white reflective columns.

    As you say, all this is coming to your local town and cities as cash strapped councils try rake in money to compensate for their hairbrained schemes. One has already appeared in Bristol, a cycle Lane that’s twice as wide as the car lane next to it.
  10. stevie22

    stevie22 Screwfix Select

    I'm not a Sparks but I'd be more inclined to cry rather than laugh. That said I had 3 rental properties done last year and the physical inspection took maybe 5 hours. I went round with the guy and helped out a bit by opening up his selection of boxes and closing up behind him. The properties were within a couple of miles of each other and as I had the keys there was no waiting around to get in. He still had the reports to write up.
  11. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    The exit of many 'amateur' landlords will also bring property back to the market that people will be able to afford to buy as a homes rather than an assets
    class. It is only anecdotal evidence but, in my experience, it is those buy-to-let landlords that make some of the worst landlords treating those that pay rent with contempt and have no understanding of their legal duties or contractual obligations.
    The sooner it is made easier and affordable to buy a first house to be your home rather than a second or third to be an 'investment' the better.
  12. TyroneE

    TyroneE New Member

    Wow ! five fours on three properties !!! That was an in-depth electrical installation inspection then ? I think not !!!
  13. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    Seven ! in one line. Wow
  14. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Never a truer word, we see it again and again.

    Here I see people living in caravans all year round as they can't find a property to rent, in theory the caravan site should shut down in the Winter they don't have a licence to run all year, and the caravans lack insulation so are expensive to live in during the winter.

    But rules and regulations mean rented property is hard to find, I had to decide if to rent or sell my mothers old house, and since not living close to it, looked at letting agents, to be told to let it you need this list of things doing, so I sold it, the things didn't really need doing, my wife and I had lived in that house for 2 years looking after my mother, using a two ring hob, but letting agents said needs to be 4 rings.

    It seems rental housing see saws from favouring landlord to favouring tenant, at one time it was near impossible to get rid of a tenant, and I have seen houses wrecked.

    Yet the council it seems has no problems when it finds some one living in a caravan all year around from turfing them out. However much we feel the tenant needs protecting, we have to realise living in a house is better than living in a cardboard box, once we have no homeless then we can put in laws to protect tenants.

    But clearly we don't want them to die due to electric shock, so yes the EICR is necessary, but it needs to be reasonable. Before I bought this house I had a home buyers report, it pointed out many things, from flashing to there being a disused fuse box between ceiling and floor above, only thing was it was not disused.

    How ever much once says a home buyers report is not an EICR, if it reports on the condition of the electrics, then it must be one. And I agree with @jonathanc the contract is between client and inspector, which is why if the LABC get an EICR done before issuing a completion certificate the home owner does not get a copy.

    If the buyer wants a report, then he pays, as a home owner I am free to tell and inspector will you give the property a quick look over and see if there are any obvious faults, or please do a thorough inspection and testing finding all the faults you can.

    If you want it doing to a set standard, then first some one needs to set that standard, I looked on the STROMA web site, I can see nothing about the standard for an EICR, look on IET or Electrical safety council yes, they say what standard they expect, but STROMA nothing.
  15. stevie22

    stevie22 Screwfix Select

    Why sneer?? What would you consider to be a reasonable time for 2 3 bed semis and a 2 bed flat?

    This was a guy who is very experienced and I have known for many years. Without me opening up and closing boxes it might have taken him another hour. If the properties were further apart and parking not easy than would have added time plus he still had to write the reports up.

    My understanding of the procedure is it's essentially a sampling exercise once the circuits have all been tested. I have done enough inspections in industry to be happy with the notion that if the circuits flag ok and a random sample of sockets etc shows no issues then all is well. If a problem was to occur then sample a bit more and if more issues are found then it's a check everything.

    I'm actually agreeing with Comlec here: I reckon 3 in a day is not unreasonable but 3-6 presumably day in day out... As I said weep rather than laugh.
  16. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    UK left EU on the basis that there was excessive regulation coming from Brussels, the argument being that this made doing business tricky ! I am not taking sides here :D

    But all govts everywhere want to measure, control and regulate, in a prescriptive manner supposedly to improve things.

    Education and training has been messed about in the U.K. for years in the false belief that more of it will produce a high wage high skill economy. The evidence has suggested otherwise

    in the 70’s pupils could leave the school at 14 with no qualification. They were not illiterate by any meaning of the word, having learnt to read and write before 11 in the primary school. UK then still produced much of the industrial and domestic goods and was competing with Germany, much of the learning and training coming from the apprentice process, topped up with attendance in technical colleges.

    The govt, needed metrics to show they were doing something positive, so they raised the school leaving age. Big problem, not everyone could pass the O levels. So in comes the CSE which were derided by employers. In time it becomes the GCSE, then O level makes it way back to the top.

    elsewhere, the polytechnics rebrand themselves as Uni but fool no one !

    Many stop offering lesser qualification like City & Guilds and others technical courses in a rush for full degree, ever increasingly watered down, often in subjects that were previously not considered a degree subject.
    In Germany much of what we abandoned continues.
  17. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I have to agree with @quasar9 when my dad did his apprenticeship it took 7 years and he was qualified at 21 year old, when I did mine 5 years the two years journeyman was dropped and day release replaced it, again qualified at 21 year old, today leaving school at 18 to still qualify by 21 year old they use block release, so the tradesman has learnt a whole load of things at school which he simply did not need to know. But as a result has very little experience.

    As to higher education yes I did in latter life get a degree, however training was very different, how to program a PLC or PIC, and how to design including heat sink sizes etc. And when I had to write the report, the lecturer said I was to list any problems with what I had done, I assumed he had like me realised the PLC I was using was designed to be mounted inside an enclosure, one could access 230 volt without use of a tool or key, as tradesmen we were unlikely to put our selves in harms way, however I put in the report that the units were not suitable for stand alone use, which it seems lecturer had missed.

    Seems I had put the cat among the pidgins.

    So some one with a C&G 2391 is far better trained to do inspection and testing to some one with a degree, (assuming don't also have C&G 2391) but if anything goes to court then it is the letters behind or in front of your name which count, even if a very low level 5 qualification.

    There is no room when signing an EICR to write trained to C&G 2391, but to put FdEng is easy after your name, which may of course been motor vehicle or sound broadcast it does not say electrical engineering.

    But what is STROMA? be it AMIET or one of the scheme providers then OK we know what standard is expected. Although having said that, back in early days of the 16th Edition many technical collages were running their own courses and exams, I know a few colleagues who when the 17th Edition came out tried to take the C&G upgrade but their 16th Edition qualification was not accepted.
  18. TyroneE

    TyroneE New Member

    I was sneering Stevie22.
    If you are happy with the outcome then that is fine by me, I guess I just carry out a more detailed inspection than some others do and therefore take a longer period of time to do so, But on the plus side as far as I'm concerned anyhow I can sleep at night. Also it does depends on what you have agreed with the client as regards to sampling etc., and don't forget the paperwork.
    Three in a day, yes manageable if they are very straight forward, not much sampling and not a lot of circuits to test, But again i expect the paperwork is completed afterwards.
    It's all down to the individual and what they are comfortable with doing/not doing and if people want to work in a certain way then I am not going to judge them for it
    I was purely making the point that it seemed to me anyhow that three in five hours was a little hurried, But perhaps I am just used to going into properties where access to everything is restricted and time consuming
  19. stevie22

    stevie22 Screwfix Select

    I know you're sneering: I asked why.

    I am the client and I leave it to the sparks to decide what he wants to look at. I'm sure he sleeps fine.

    You then agree 3 in a day manageable so I'm struggling to see what you're trying to say..
  20. ElecCEng

    ElecCEng Screwfix Select

    We are trying to say that there are a great deal of people working in the industry who are exploiting the PRS legislation to do sub standard inspections, which makes it much harder for those of us to do them properly to justify why to clients.

    An EICR is NOT a sampling exercise. Sampling is only acceptable in circumstances where previous reports are available and a regular maintenance or inspection regime (in addition to the EICR). This does not apply in the vast majority of domestic cases. I have NEVER had a domestic client who was able to produce a previous EICR for me to review prior to conducting one.

    The default position for a blind EICR with no previous knowledge of the condition of the installation is a 100% inspection. That is every single light fitting, socket etc. I can on a good day, in a small flat, empty of tenant and all furniture etc, do this in 2-3 hours. Add in neon switches, USB sockets, ‘smart home’ accessories and recessed LED downlights, EICRs are becoming an absolute fracking nightmare. Your spark is obviously a better man than me.

    I have had clients in London who feel they were ‘ ripped off’ paying £150 for an EICR in the counties when they are paying agents in the City £50-80 for an EICR. It is bonkers, dangerous, and making a mockery of the industry.

    The Scottish government, for all their many many faults, stated clearly on their communications regarding smoke alarms that they should cost around £250. This has virtually eliminated clients sucking their teeth and asking why quotes are so high for a seemingly simple job. Would it be that difficult for the UK govt (and ESF and ECA, and possibly (gasp!) the scham providers) to put some wording in their literature/online that an EICR should cost a minimum of £150 (regionally weighted) and take at least 2-3 hours? Clients may suddenly become very wary of EICRs offered at as little as £40 where the ‘inspector’ spends 20min sucking their teeth at a light fitting before recommending a new metal RCBO CU and walking away…

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