Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by ChrisWoo, Oct 20, 2021.
So the word is may.
Embedding in non-insulating plaster certainly doesn't reduce the capacity and, as the 27A is more than enough for safety, that's fine.
Make your mind up! Safe? Or Unsafe?
Definitely safe, so no 13A FCU for me. What, exactly, is unsafe about supplying a maximum of 22A for a maximum of 15 minutes (the time it takes to heat the water in the washing machine) down a cable rated at 27A? I know it doesn't comply with the IET guidance but we're talking about safety here.
Your words In your reply to Tony!
“Thanks for your replies, Tony. You are right that the only way to make it safe and compliant is to extend the ring”.
I am sorry if I wasn't clear. The existing wiring is safe but not compliant. I can make it compliant if I install a 13A FCU but then it would be unsafe, as I have explained above. As the wiring is safe, I am happy to wait until I redecorate before extending the ring.
I repeat. What, exactly, is unsafe about supplying a maximum of 22A for a maximum of 15 minutes (the time it takes to heat the water in the washing machine) down a cable rated at 27A?
@sparky steve we're wasting time and effort here mate. He has no intention of listening and will do what he wants.
He comes and asks for advice then argues against it, regardless of the fact if the FCU is BS1363 approved it is tested at extended temperatures for a minimum period of time. He really ought to get on a quiz show or mastermind while he knows it all.
@Bazza-spark agreed Bazza
As you are, I assume, a fully qualified electrician, why can't you answer my very simple question:
What, exactly, is unsafe about supplying a maximum of 22A for a maximum of 15 minutes (the time it takes to heat the water in the washing machine) down a cable rated at 27A?
You have been told numerous times this is non-compliant. That makes it unsafe. If I was carrying out an EICR then I would disconnect it to make it safe and it would be on my report.
Jog on chancer!
As I expected, you confuse safety with compliance. The fact that you cannot or refuse to answer my very simple question confirms that there is nothing unsafe with the wiring.
I know it does not comply - I said that in my original posting! So, telling me it is non-compliant simply repeats what I know already. As it is safe, I will correct the non-compliance in due course by extending the ring.
I cannot believe that you are recommending that I install a 13A FCU - despite knowing that it will be overloaded and will overheat! That is definitely unsafe. I would not let you anywhere near my house to do electrical work!
It will not overheat and cause a fire if it is approved to BS1363.
So suppose you drop dead. Your family sells the house and the new owners see your utility room wth all its sockets. They plug in allsorts and burn the place down because there is an unfused spur.
Deviation from 7671 is allowed PROVIDED it does not lead to a reduction in safety.
I am not argueing with you any further. You have a little knowledge but not enough, and that makes you dangerous.
As Bazza-Spark says, its not so much about is it safe for you, it's is it safe down the line for someone else, additionally is it safe if an unforseen fault condition arises or someome other than you plugs in another load.
Compliance is designed to achieve safety - as Electricians we are trained to follow the regulations, which are our bible, we take exams in their use and interpretation. They are written by a huge committee of experts in their fields, the methods are subject to testing at the BSI.
You could use the same argument about say, not earthing a class 1 brass table lamp, you could argue the insulation on the cable is unlikely to fail and make the brass live and it is therefore safe, and that is true, until it happens and then it is very unsafe.
Also as B-S says, a good quality Bs1363 spur won't catch fire, they do overheat and can fall over if overloaded for a long period, but the plastics from which they are made are not combustible, usually urea formaldehyde. It just discolours, cracks at the hottest point and smells like last weeks haddock.
Any electrical device that gets so hot that it discolours, cracks and smells like old haddock must, by definition, be unsafe. I am amazed that electricians are prepared to install such a device in my cupboard under the stairs, where there may be inflammable material, in the full knowledge that the FCU will be overloaded and will overheat. It's not me that's dangerous - it's you!
I have already addressed the point about new people moving in by saying I will extend the ring in due course (I have no plans to move).
I have established there is no safety issue with the existing wiring and nobody has provided any evidence to the contrary by, for example, answering my very simple question. Bazza has acknowledged that "Deviation from 7671 is allowed PROVIDED that it does not lead to a reduction in safety".
Your slavish adherence to 7671, in the full knowledge that the FCU is a safety risk, brings to mind the famous quotation coined by Harry Day, the WW1 fighter ace:
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Yet again, you are wrong.
No spark would install it knowing it would be overloaded. The circuit would be designed to prevent that!
There is only one fool here Woowoo!
This was your reply to my OP, in which I clearly stated that the total load is 5kW (22A) and described the circuit in detail.
Then you say above: "No spark would install it knowing it would be overloaded. The circuit would be designed to prevent that!"
You contradict yourself! Perhaps you should have said "No competent spark..." As I said previously, I wouldn't let you anywhere near my house to do electrical work!
I suggest you follow the law of holes, "when you're in a hole - stop digging".
My response was how to make the circuit compliant, not that it was the correct circuit for your application. But you didn't ask about the application, only compliance.
I wouldn't want to work in your house because of the bodges you have made.
I do believe it is you digging holes.
Note to self -- This will be a good line to use at my next assessment.
And when the assessor asks who advised me of this, I will of course protect my source and only say it was a self appointed wise man on an internet forum.
Once the laughter has died down we shall sip our coffee and enjoy our chocolate hobnobs and return to to the real world.
I miss the troll. At least he was brief.
Separate names with a comma.