Would you be happy with this work?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Daniel_77p, May 9, 2019.

  1. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Peter, not being funny but where have you got this stupid idea about a fire being contained within an enclosure? Its yet another example of misinformation being posted on a forum. The wires entering the enclosure will burn won't they? How is a stupid little enclosure on the end of a cable going to stop fire spreading along the cable? The enclosure is there to protect the joint, prevent touching live parts and/or for covering basic insulation. NOT to contain a fire!
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  2. peter palmer

    peter palmer Well-Known Member

    The overwhelming reason consumer units were changed from plastic to metal was to stop the spread of fire, fire will still travel along a cable from the CU won't it, thus in your eyes metal consumer units are useless. Each enclosure like a junction box etc has to be made from a non combustible material.
     
  3. Kas228

    Kas228 Member

    I'm not an electrician, but physics dictate that a fire within an enclosed space will rapidly die once the oxygen has gone, without oxygen there will be no fire. eg fire doors etc.
    Try putting a candle under an upside down glass the flame soon goes out. Is this not the same theory?
     
  4. koolpc

    koolpc Well-Known Member

    Be interested to hear of any updates to this. Even i wouldnt wire it like that and i am no expert!
     
  5. Heat

    Heat Well-Known Member

    A lot of downlighters are wired just with terminal blocks.
    I have seen this done with low voltage downlights, but the terminal block is on the 240volt supply.
    Madness
     
  6. Kas228

    Kas228 Member

    All of my down lighters have these grey plastic 'wago' boxes as you call them about 12 inches away from the down light itself. I suspect they would control any potential fire as they are relatively airtight (as long as the material they are made from is non flammable of course).
     
  7. Heat

    Heat Well-Known Member

    I am not an electrician, but I think any loose wires, particularly in areas that will get occasional contact, like in an attic, should be connected within boxes that have cable grips.
    To use ordinary junction boxes of wires are clipped fully up to them would obviously be fine though.
     
    dobbie likes this.
  8. dobbie

    dobbie Well-Known Member

    That would be covered by regulation 522.8.5.
    When using normal junctions that are accessible,they should be screwed to a joist and the cables clipped.
    Other types of junction boxes do not need to be fixed but they must have cable clamps and the cables clamped with these.
    526.5 also states joints should be in an enclosure,not wrapped in tape.
     
    Heat likes this.
  9. mcooper2406

    mcooper2406 Active Member

    What's ironic is that if this picture was on a thread of a DIYer asking if what they had just done was acceptable I'm sure absolutely no one would be defending them and would absolutely be suggesting they get a professional in.
     
  10. ajohn

    ajohn Active Member

    I picked up on some official comments on why the change was made to metal consumer units - fires put down to electricians not tightening connections up in them sufficiently. London fires were mentioned specifically - a number of them.

    The physicists one here seem to have forgot that the plastics that were used melts. Fault as mentioned generate heat. Air tight consumer units? - oh well.,

    There is another reason as well. Factories being against the change. New regs go in that direction a long time before many other people get them. In that area it relates to shorts to grounded enclosures being better than not knowing about them also fires.

    When people quote the regs I think they should copy paste the entire section they mention some how or the other because I get the impression that last time I looked just one person mentioned that aspect of the work was done correctly but not how some would choose to do it. Me included. Another point is that that terminal connections of the type used are extremely well established. Wago etc aren't and the main reason for those sort of thing being introduced is speed and ease of wiring.

    John
    -
     
  11. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    The precise wording of the Regulation 421.1.201 is non combustible material and refers solely to consumer units in domestic premises. It is not a requirement to contain a fire, it is requirement that the material won't burn. The regulation referring to other enclosures is 421.1.6 and that again simply requires fire resistance. If a joint is correctly made, the terminals being tight, there is no likelihood of any overheating so I don't know where the fire is going to start in a junction box or connector block wrapped in insulation tape. To be honest I don't know what British Sandard insulation tape is manufactured under so whether it is fire resistant I doin't know.
     
  12. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    No it doesn't say "not wrapped in tape" that's your misinformation. It's states within one of the following or a combination therof. So by inference a cable terminated in a connector block is compliant with 526.5 (i) which is one of the only requirements necessary. If wrapped in tape it ensures the live terminal screws can't be touched. It is a rough and poor method of jointing but technically compliant.
     
  13. dobbie

    dobbie Well-Known Member

    Regulation 526.5 ‘Every termination and joint in a live conductor or a PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof:

    (i) A suitable accessory complying with the appropriate product standard
    (ii) An equipment enclosure complying with the appropriate product standard
    (iii) An enclosure partially formed or completed with building material which is non-combustible when tested to BS476-4.

    Regulation 526.8 ‘Cores of sheathed cables from which the sheath has been removed and non-sheathed cables at the termination of conduit, ducting or trunking shall be enclosed as required by Regulation 526.

    If you read the above regulation, you will see you are totally wrong and that tape does not comply.
     
  14. Comlec

    Comlec Well-Known Member

    So @dobbie, enlighten us to the Code you give terminal strip wrapped in tape when you come across it during an EICR.
     
  15. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Dobbie, a connector block is "(i) a suitable accessory complying with the appropriate product standard". As I keep repeatedly saying it is not really a professional and acceptable way it would normally be done, it is a poor way of doing it, but using a connector block wrapped in insulation tape IS technically compliant, just rough. It is there in black and white staring you in the face, you've even quoted it! You seem to be seeing words in the Reg. that actually aren't there, like, insulation taped joints must not be used. I really can't see anything remotely like that in the Reg. It is a misinformed interpretation on your part to just defend your scathing remarks against a sparky who used that method, and I've caught you out.
     
  16. dobbie

    dobbie Well-Known Member

    If there was no insulation showing and all taped up then a C3.
     
  17. Comlec

    Comlec Well-Known Member

    So, not dangerous or potentially dangerous, nothing to worry about really.
     
    seneca likes this.
  18. dobbie

    dobbie Well-Known Member

    Does not conform to regulations and could do with improvement.
     
  19. ajohn

    ajohn Active Member

    Who ever has done it has used that type connector correctly anyway. well sort of. Done as they have done it they are ok on their own really unless some one comes along and says oh electricity and pokes something conductive into it. It could be handled without any fear providing the screws are tight.

    Sort off - AKA barrier strip. Designed to take one wire in each end not a group of wires into one side. This is why conventional round junction boxes have slots and larger screws. They will take them in any direction. On the other hand there must be millions of bits of barrier strip about used like that and IF tight no problem.

    John
    -
     
  20. goldenboy

    goldenboy Well-Known Member

    The money sparks charge I wouldn't just want it done to the absolute bare minimum standard.

    I would want it done professionally and neatly.
     
    Daniel_77p and mcooper2406 like this.

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