Breasts (chimney)

check this similar forum topic

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?forumID=21&threadID=492&messageID=4161#4161

 

You need to check the chimney has been supported in the loft by gallows brackets (they look like industrial shelf supports or by a steel lintel)

If not you may be able to negotiate with the seller a reduction in purchase price to allow for the extra work.

I've bought my last 2 properties where the chimneys were supported by nothing more than braced 2" by 2" timber and fresh air.

Bloody 70's bodgers.

 

ps you CANNOT support the chimney on the bedroom ceiling joists.

 

Hello CB

30 years ago it wasn't required that anymore than 'emphasised support' was required. It evolved that the support was never very clearly defined and so interpretations were made and structures began to tumble and Inspectors got more and more involved with overseeing chimney works.

I would be very careful here because if your chimney were constructed at the same time as your neighbours chimney, which is highly likely and if your neighbours chimney has not been adulterated then one quarter of the total constructional integrity has been removed albeit 30 years ago. The additional loading on the party wall will have increased so I would study that with microscopic intensity and dont hear any reason you may be offered as to any cracking you may discover. Look in the loft and seek any detrimental effect on the wall roofing or chimney as a result of downward and inward loading excesses imposed by the chimney stack. Check the corbelling for any cracking or more importantly repairs.

If you are truly satisfied then one can assume that the chimney has not moved so now for the remedial works.

The chimney will pass inspection if no one touches it because it wont require certification because no installation has been undertaken but show any signs of works then it wont. You must install rsj's or box channels to support the brickwork above and it is a difficult task to do. It must be done by a well insured professional and so I will not tell you how it is done through fear you may attempt it and your house or your neighbours house collapses as a result of my advice.

Otherwise take the remainder of the chimney down which again if not done properly may result in damage to your neighbours house and yours.

I apologise in advance if I appear presumptious but chimney removal is a highly skilled aspect of engineering and if not done with a great deal of professionalism can and will cause damage to life and property

 

Perhaps Charley Farley would know the regs for 30 ago.

But there doesn't seem much in point in saying "you shouldn't have done that". It was all the rage 30 years ago.

All you can do is fix it or walk away from the house.

It's not that big a job and can be done by a COMPETENT DIY'er but easier to get a professional in.

It's only a days work if no unseen problems encountered and you don't pick cowboy with only a mobile number.

I'm pretty sure the council wouldn't be interested in inspecting it as it is remedial work for an existing problem. They may be interested if you were doing it now but purely from a structural point of view.

 

Seems my posting overlapped yours Charlie.

From your description of the work it seems I may have been too confident in the ability of the competent DIY'er

I'd still feel confident in repairing an old bodge especially if it's been up there 30 years.

Might wear a hard hat and ID tag round my neck next time though

 

I would certainly confirm with them that their chimneys are structurally sound. It's in their benefit after all.

Then, provided yours are braced in accordance with good practice you shouldn't have any problems.

If however, you go on holiday and they hack theirs out and support it with floorboards (as mine were) you might have a bit of a problem.
But at least most of it will fall on their side.....

 

The damage, if any would have happened in the first six months of the work being done and time and polyfilla may have covered over any cracking that may have occured but this would have now 'tilted' the chimney toward your side of the structure and like The Leaning Tower of Pisa, remained like it. To add; if the structure did move then the mortar that was sticking the brick together may not now be doing that, it adhesion expires after it has dried.

You haven't said whether the chimney has been sealed to prevent the weather entering it. This element alone can and will cause damp in the timber supports, the chimney wall and infiltrate into the fabric of the house. I cannot emphasise enough you must scrutise it with the skill of a surgeon because it is a very expensive claim to make if any problems arise as a direct result of the chimney support failing.

 

must admit, done it many times before just using 4 by 3 props, and all been checked by structual enginer, but he never lived in these houses, i supose if the stack is in good conditionwith next doors it should all be pretty sound,but the thought of that massive weight falling down to the ground, and it would!! would scare me silly.
and wotdo bods want now, eerr fireplaces?

 

If doing any work to support the chimney breast you will need Building Regualtion approval (see you local council). These days it is almost certain that the breast will need to be supported by RSJ's as designed by a structural engineer.

Without a building warrent you will have difficulty selling your house.

Building control officers are good at giving free advice on what you need to do to submitt plans etc etc.

 

I have just read the posts regarding removal of chimney breasts. The bit that really caught my attention is the planning permission/ building control. I want to remove my chimney from the top down to 1st floor ceiling height so that I can create extra space in the loft which I intend to convert. The chimney stack is in the centre of the house and does not support any walls, floors or the roof joists above the 1st floor ceiling. I will have to add additional timbers to allow for the extra tiles to cover the resultant hole , all of which is well within my capability. I will also have to provide a flue for the gas fire in the living room. This I hope to achieve by venting horizontally between the joists in the living room ceiling. I will get a professional to do the gas fire bit - so hopefully no problems there.
From a structural point of view I know the removal of the chimney won't cause any problems, but do i need permission to actually remove the chimney - i was just going to do it - until i read this section that is.

Thanks

 

I pretty sure you don't need permission as planning won't be needed. The problems occur when you try to sell the house. Regulations on things like this seem amazingly lax

What you intend sounds straightforward but it's worth the cost of a structural engineer for a few pointers. The big problem with most chimney removal is that people hack in from the middle. (I've got a big slab of concrete hearth in the bedroom that needs removing after christmas left over by the previous "builder") Top down is far easier.

A quick phone call to your local council will confirm the details you require and building regs.

Remember the chimney stack is quite a height above roof line and you'll need scaffolding (or a the very least a mattress in the garden for when you fall.. ) You could have at least 3 metres from your loft floor to chimney pots.

Have you thought of a firepace in your loft? Wish we could have done that.

Also some new gas fires don't need a flue.....

 

I was aware that some gas fires don't need flues and I will consider that when i have the living room done. But the idea of a fireplace in the loft ( i assume you mean a real fire) now that is a good idea - another one to add to my list of things to do (don't tell the missus - she'll go garety)

thanks for the help

 

I haven't a clue what garety means !

but glad I could put some ideas forward.

Merry Christmas.

 

There is a useful piece of information:

http://www.richmond.gov.uk/depts/env/envprotection/building/Guidance/Guidance/ChimneyStacks.htm

Your local building control may offer advice.

Having surveyed older buildings, I would be very cautious of any chimney breast that is removed, even if it does meet with BC approval. The stresses place on the walls are not the normal load stresses, and problems may develop a very long way in the future.

If this is typical 1970s work of over enthusiastic vanadalism - beware!

Nowadays, a chimney is considered a desirable feature in any period property.

I would be tempted to instruct your surveyor to comment on this, and negotiate a lower price based on restoration back to original.