We've had an extension and removal of walls creating a kitchen, diner, living room in that order, with a patio beyond the living room. There are two RSJs supporting where the dividing/supporting & exterior wall used to be in this 1961 bungalow. Looking from the living room, I noticed that there was weird angle between the kitchen ceiling and the RSJ, once all the boxing in and ceiling were installed. It makes the kitchen ceiling look like it's sloping from left to right. This bugged me so I asked the builder why its not right, and he said the original ceiling was a mess. OK fair enough. Now I've realised that it's the RSJ that's sloping. It's 25mm higher on one side. I've asked him, and he says it's because the original house wasn't built properly, but I'm struggling to understand this. He had a free hand with the new ceiling boards and the level of the RSG. He neglected to tell me anything like "I'm really sorry, but there's no other way to install this beam". He just waited for me to first mention the kitchen ceiling not looking right, and then when I discovered it wasn't the ceiling at all, tell me he couldn't install the RSJ horizontal because of the house. If it were me, I'd put somthing either under the padstone, or something on top of the RSJ. If it were wrong, I'd tell the client. Can anyone suggest a legitimate reason why he's done this, and/or who they would suggest I use to mediate any dispute? The guy has already offered to install my wooden flooring then proceeded to lay it with stupid annoying gaps that he says 'will fill with dust anyway'. The kitchen is now fully installed on top of it, despite my querying it after three rows not quite looking right. I owe him about £10k at the end of the build in a few days. He's had us out of the property for the last 3 weeks, despite guaranteeing it would take 10 days to do the final work. We are now having to sell personal items at significant financial & sentimental value, to cover the unexpected and unbudgetted hotel stay.
Should get building control to come and check all is ok before plastering over. Did it go through BC?
Are your kitchen ceiling joists original or new work the builder carried out? I only ask as I wonder how you determined the 25mm discrepancy, did you use a spirit level to check or did you just measure, and if you did what did you measure off?
Can you post photo's of the affected area. He wouldn't be the first builder to fit an RSJ in not level and won't be the last, why I'll never know.
Saddens me,what is so difficult getting a rsj level, seen it numerous times over the years where a rsj is out of level. Photo: It's sloping.
I'll tell you what is so difficult,it's called having pride in your work,something that is all too lacking these days.I see it in my job (electrical) all the time,it seems to be a case of "throw it in,take the money and run".If you can't do a job properly then don't do it at all,that's my opinion,sometimes it's harder to get a job wrong than right,but hey that seems to be the modern way,unfortunately.
Measuring upwards from the floor. I've been in the loft and the RSJ and the original wooden loft beams and roof supporting structure are all touching or almost touching the top of the RSJ along its length. This indicates the the top of the original dividing wall must have been non-perfect to begin with. Howvever, this seems like a chance missed to pack under the wooden between it and the RSJ, to allow the RSJ to be horizontal. I'm guessing he didn't want the effort of having to do this, because he would have had more effort then to make the dining rooming ceiling boards actually flat. This is curved too, to meet with the RSJ, and follow the angle of the wooden beams above.
Should I be seeking redress here? I'd like it to be perfect. With it having gone so far, am I stuck having to look at this joke for the foreseeable future?
Measuring in this instance only suggests, not confirms. Your floor could be running out one way, ceiling could well be out, and the rsj somewhere in between. I would suggest without causing a riot you acquire a 6ft level and check all horizontal points that catch the eye and then question the builder with your findings as to why? If indeed the rsj is out of level then it's not a huge job for them to rectify, just batten and pack to suit. Perhaps you may want to hold back on going in all guns blazing too as I sense you're not happy, but until all the reasons (excuses?) and facts are laid out in front of you you should give the builder a fair chance to explain himself.
If you say that the joists are touching the rsj then I guess the ceiling must be warped. If its level at the back wall but not level at the rsj, and that's not the fault of the rsj, it was the original wall. Assuming that's the case ( and you need to confirm that ) then everything is fine, except, as is the case in many situations, not everything in a house is level, and sometimes setting one thing level actually just accentuates that something else is NOT level. So no matter what you do, I would suspect that something is not going to appear level. I would add an additional coating to the rsj, but not the full inch. Probably a compromise would be best, of say on half inch. I would also paint it the same colour as the ceiling so it doesn't stand out so much. In it's present colour the fact that it's not level really stands out.
Floor is level. RSJ is showing 1-2 degrees out by electronic spirit level. Kitchen ceiling and dining ceiling have been fitted flat in some places, except where leading up to this RSJ. He did say that the original kitchen ceiling was all a mess, and 'we've done our best for you', but considering it was all new boards, why not just do the RSJ right, and fit the ceiling boards correctly? It would have meant packing a lot under the kitchen and dining boards, but at at least it would be right.
I'm not sure how coating the RSJ would help? Do you mean coat it as a gradient to make its bottom parallel to the floor? In that case, it's box would cease to be rectagular, and the problem would just be transferred. Can you clarify?
It is quite simple - is the RSJ touching the joists all the way along or have they been packed up ? If the RJS is directly supporting the joist all along then this is much better than trying to use some small packers. Obviously to get bigger packers in he would have had to lower the RSJ to get the underside level. At the end of the day it is a simple job to fix the boxing in to get it level and plumb.
Yes, it will cease to be rectangular. But how can it possibly be rectangular right now if the rsj is at an angle to the ceiling? The only possible answer is that the the real cause is that the ceiling is not level where the rsj is. Why would the builder set the rsj at an angle then pack underneath all of the joists? He just wouldn't do that. He would pack underneath the rsj at the ends so that it is flush with the existing joists. That basically means that it's not the rsj that's at fault here, its the ceiling joists. Now this is a situation that is very difficult to correct. You can level the rsj, sure, but then the rsj won't be parallel to the ceiling which means that it won't be rectangular as you put it. But the only way to correct that is to remove the ceiling and pack each joist so they are true. Messy. Expensive. You really don't want to do that. Nor does the builder. Adding a gradient to the box over the rsj is a compromise that's really cheap and easy. If you go for a gradient that's half the current gradient ~ 1/2", then you visually improve the situation without having to rebuild the entire ceiling. Often in houses it is necessary to set angles at a compromise because you just can't get everything level without dismantling half the house. I really think that if you change the box to add that compromise gradient and then paint it white it would solve the problem for a minimal effort and I am sure the builder would be prepared to do that.
Thanks for your response. Yes you are right that the joists appear to be the root cause here, although I wasn't suggesting he put the RSJ in at an angle then pack. What I don't understand is why, with both ceilings removed (from the kitchen due to it being a disaster, and from the diner due to it being badly damaged), that the new boards he's laid under the dodgy joists weren't packed. It is possible that he didn't remove *all* of the dining room ceiling, and this is why there was no attempt to pack under the new boards. Out of interest, if the ceilings had both been removed, how much cost and time is it from that point, to pack under the joists so that the entire area is ready to receive a flat set of ceiling boards? What materials would be used to attach to the joists to do this? I suppose its a real bore-ache measuring under each individual fixing point? If it were my work, time, budget etc, I'd want the ceiling & RSJ to be bang on horizontal, so I could know a job well done and also not have to look at it every time I walked down the room.
Without reading every word of this post it seems to me that worrying about the rsj is pointless. If you want it changed i would remove the plasterboard, even up the battening around the rsj / joists in the immidiate area and then replaster. A good plasterer is then key to then get it to look even.
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