To power flush or not?

The plumbers will be along to advise soon but for warranty purposes a power flush should have been done before the boiler was fitted.
Your plumber sounds like a cowboy and is clutching at straws.

 

sorry Donna but you're up the creek without a paddle, worcester will wash their hands because it states in the MI's that the boiler must only be installed on a clean system, the installer should have flushed it before it was installed, you're only chance of getting it working without a large bill is to make your installer stand by his responsibilities, and it sounds like he's not going to,
You could try getting in touch with gassafe but i would't hold my breath, they are toothless unless there is danger to life or property,

 

£300 for a pump!!! wish I had the balls to charge that kind of money for a £85.00 part Jesus.
Like Tom says Donna looks like youve been stiched up by a total waste ofd space, he should have ensured that the system was clean on installation and quoted you as such. If the system needs a power flush now it needed it before he changed the boiler. Dont know how far you get but it may well pay you to have a word with Trading standards, you'll find them via your local council web site.
Good luck

 

I'd agree that powerflushing is an expensive 'invented ' industry, Its not the way i'd go about it, I'd take off the offending rads and flush then out in the yard/garden or renew them then flush the sytem with cold water at pressure, if that does't fix it you may need a partial or full repipe, Sorry to be telling you something you don't want to hear Donna but thats the reality,

 

Donna, was this just a new boiler, or was a new pump and other bits fitted too last June?

This issue only came to light when you started using the CH in earnest later that year? In which case the assumption that Trading Standards (or Small Claims Court...) would make is that the installation was faulty from day one - so in many ways the fitter is liable.

Except it might not be that simple...

Because if all he fitted was a new boiler, then it's almost certain that there were 'issues' about your system there beforehand - like sludge.

BUT, the first thing the installer should have done is to check for and then eradicate any existing sludge. This is a requirement for most manufacturer's boiler installations before they'll provide a warranty (part of the 'benchmarking' process that new boiler install have to go through, I believe). Not only will sludge make your system less efficient, it can also cause other major issues (like you are having) and also clog up the boiler (which the manufacturer will not cover...)

Ok, power-flushes... These do work. In that they will remove the vast majority of sludge in a system, and often clear it all nicely. However, (and this is where Mr Tom Plum's point is, I think) it is not guaranteed to clear really stubborn and tightly packed sludge which you'll often get in the bottoms of radiators (and which cause the rad bottoms to remain cold).

So Mr Plum reckons that each rad should be removed and flushed through individually instead - this is supposedly just as effective and costs next to now't. (I disagree - unless the rad is the type that you can see right through from one tail to the other so's you can see that it's been cleared, or even poke a wire through. Most rads won't allow that, and a cold hose being placed on one end of a cranked tail is not going to shift packed sludge...)

Ok, where do you stand now? Hopefully near a kettle so's you can put a cuppa on as you carry on reading.

cough

Ok, what the plumber did in replacing the pump and redoing some pipework was to try and prevent air from being sucked in to your system from the vent pipe wot goes up into your loft. This can happen with poorly-designed systems, or when a rad system can become partly blocked - so the pump starts drawing in a bit of air as it tries to 'pull' the water around the system.

However, if you didn't have that problem before this new boiler, why should you have it now?

So, I may be being a bit unfair on this plumber, but I suspect he jumped on the 'wrong pipework' cause before considering others. And that's cost you £300. And you still have a dirty system.

Soooo, let's see where you are... Your lower rad has a cold bottom. This is almost certainly as he says - caused by sludge. Which begs the Q; why doesn't he remove it and clean it through?

Then the rest of your system really should be cleaned too, either by paying for a power-flush or by the semi-manual method of Mr Plum's. Then you will need more strong cleaners added to your system along with a magnetic filter (is there one fitted? If not, all that loose sludge is chust going round and around your system...) on the return to catch the remaining sludge over time.

That will cost a £ew hundred, I'm afraid - but it should have been done in the first place. If your boiler packs up due to all this sludge flying around since the system was not cleaned properly (and recorded), Worcester will not warrant the repair.

Perhaps a sit-down chat with this guy might be worth while. A reasonable sit-down chat... The presence of sludge is not his 'fault', but he should have sorted it out first. So any new boiler quote should have had that £ew hundred added then to cover this.

So, you ask him - why didn't he recommend/carry out the power-flush/system clean before the new boiler was installed? Add that you understand Worcester won't guarantee their boilers without this.

Then you tell him that if it turns out the 'air' problem was due to sludge as you both now suspect, then you will expect a significant refund for his pump/pipework 'cure'. Fair do's you will pay for the pump (IF the old one was old) but not for the unnecessary pipe modifications. You explain that your system didn't draw in air due to this 'wrong' pipework before the new boiler was installed, so you don't understand why he decided the layout was suddenly at fault. He took a gamble on this being the problem, and it was wrong. And the real cause - sludge - should have been obvious and should have been sorted instead (at the very beginning, so there shouldn't have been any problems...).

The other plumber who recommended against a power-flush, did he say why? It is true that sometimes radiators will start to leak following a powerflush, but this is due to the sludge being cleaned out of the rad and exposing a thin corroded wall that was being kept from leaking only by the coating of sludge! In other words - an accident waiting to happen... Does this other plumber recommend a different cleaning process instead?

Bottom line; you almost certainly have significant sludge in your system and this could well be causing the 'air' issue. It needs clearing out. So land that in your plumber's lap...

But, it will cost you a £ew hundred, tho', and that would always have been the case - whether at the beginning or now.

 

A new radiator shouldn't be full of sludge!
Get a new plumber, yours is an idiot.

 

that Mr Devs is a smashing fellow but he does go on a bit, i fell asleep during that post but heres a vid of mine showing whats inside your pipes and rads,

 

Hmm, that's a bit strange right enough - I hadn't realised it was a new rad.

When a radiator suffers from a cold centre-bottom (ooh-er, missus), it is usually because sludge has built up inside and settled in a pyramid formation in t'middle of the rad. This usually happens over a long period, tho', so I'm not sure how 'soft' sludge would have done this and so quickly. Not to say it couldn't happen, tho' - I chust don't know.

But, I am a bit astonished he didn't - with all these symptoms - just do the obvious thing and remove it, take it outside and wash it through. That would have told him lots about what's going on.

The upstairs bedroom rad doesn't necessarily need replacing either - if it's now empty of sludge, it's fine! Just because it may have been corroding over some time doesn't mean it's going to carry on doing so; once your system is cleaned, anti-corrosion additive should prevent further problems. And if this rad was rusting inside, so were all the others...

Anyways, it does sound as tho' you need a good clean (matron!), and that's something that was always needed - no escape.

 

Your boiler instructions require the installer to flush your system to the current standards when the boiler is installed. BS7593:2006 is the current british standard. 3 methods of flushing are recommended in this standard, which one is used depends on the system and its condition but the end result should be the same, a clean system.

If you are having sludge issues then the installer may not have complied with BS7593, sadly this can invalidate your boilers warranty. lucky for you worcester have good customer service so your warranty may still be worth something.

 

Chust wondering if DA'S still alive!, surely he must take air in whilst posting?, I really hope so 'Cos the forum needs guys like him tbh.
Mr DA, breath in.......breath out........and repeat.........until...........well chust until you've come up for more oxygen.
Good posts btw mate.

 

It means your plumber is an idiot.

 

Radiators are iron so ferrous metal,
So they rust,
If you have a system with no inhibitor the iron will be subjected to oxidisation...rust,
Power flushing is really only beneficial if you want to keep existing rads & pipe work & fit a new boiler, this is why we also fit magnetic extraction filters, if you have been subjected to a plumber that has fudged your system, the question is? How bad are they? For the sake of £10 your plumber would of stopped all this

 

Blimey, more and more confused...

He put a match to this gas - what happened?

If it ignited, then it was hydrogen which means that gas is caused by corrosion. It if didn't ignite, it's likely to be chust air - and that had to be drawn in to the system somehow.

So, if it ignited - suggesting corrosion - and he tried to cure this by rejigging the pipework to prevent air from being drawn in, then I simply haven't a clue any more what this guy is doing...

BUT, I'm mustn't be unfair to him as I obviously don't know the half of it.

Donna - when he added all these chemicals, did he also fit a filter to catch all the carp? (A cylindrical object around a foot long on the return pipe to the boiler.)