Wet room leaking - Can i ask advice as plumber / builder coming back to 'fix' the problem

Installer definitely at fault from looking at those images.

 

He may have forced a tapered fitting into the housing instead of a parallel fitting.
Either way its the installers fault for damage to the valve and your home.

 

OOh I see. Those images are from the first leak. Then they fixed it.
And its leaking again.

 

Hi Caroline.

A hellish situation for you to be in. And a situation you simply shouldn't be in.

I am really hoping that your builder did everything - both supplied the parts and installed them?

Cool. That's good news. 'Cos it means they are liable and need to sort it.

The manufacturer sounds like a typical 'big technical report' "it ain't our fault" type. But that's not a problem for you. This has to be sorted out by the builder, and it's up to him whether to tackle the manufacturer or not.

This is not for you to do.

So, forget 'wall thicknesses' and 'parallel threads' and 'cotton' (whatever that is ).

When 'shouty' builder turns up, explain to him how it's gonna be. If he is belligerent or argumentative or trying to avoid responsibility, then make him a cuppa and explain "Look - I'm just the customer. I paid you for a job which has unfortunately failed. I don't know why it failed, I only know it has. I do understand your frustration - the manufacturer is trying to avoid responsibility for it. But, you know that's nothing to do with me. And it's therefore not right for you to be anything other than fair and reasonable about this; I have a damaged house and a builder who should be helping me out. Taking responsibility. Earning a good reputation..."

Follow up with "I do know my rights here, and it's for you to sort out and to tackle the manufacturer if you want to. That is not my job. So, please, let's just get this sorted in the best way..."

If he is anything other than responsive to this, if you think you are going to have issues, then it's time to remove the cuppa, and make it official with a letter. Get advice on this (Citizen's Advice) but it'll essentially consist of telling this company to sort it within, say, a couple of weeks, or you will get another builder to do so and then sue them for the whole cost. And you will win.

I don't know if there's any mileage in looking at 'sharing' the issue - eg you claim for the damage to the fabric on your insurance, and the builder sorts the actual shower?

 

If he has had two attempts at it, get a new installer and give him the bill.

 

Oops - you bought the parts and he installed it? Argh - that messes things up quite a bit.

Had the builder dun everything - supplied and fitted - then you'd simply hand the whole prtoblem over to him to sort. End of.

But not now. If the part was faulty, then the builder would not at all be liable for redoing the work FOC.

So now you are in the middle, and have to try and work out who is liable - the supplier or the builder.

The supplier's report is just that - a report carried out on behalf of the supplier. I'm not going to say it is biased, but - quite simply - who's to know?

The report seems, in itself, 'fair enough'; what it says looks largely 'reasonable'. But it does not 'prove' that there wasn't a casting fault in the mixer, for example, and the mention of 'excessive use of PTFE tape' is chust silly - that certainly didn't cause the fault.

So, you have a problem.

Is there anything we can conclude in here? I think so. For instance, if the mixer's threaded fitting (female) was tapered-thread and the plumber used a parallel-thread (should be easy enough to prove), then the builder messed up. End of. So he's liable. Do you have a copy of the installation instructions for the mixer? If so, have a read through and see what it says about these connections - I'd expect something like "Warning - only use tapered blah blahs..."

So, the issue is far more complex now that you supplied the parts.

My personal advice, I think, would be to claim on your house insurance and be done...

 

From the MI's..

This product should only be fitted by a qualified plumber to NVQ (National Vocational
Qualification) or SNVQ (Scottish National Vocational Qualification) Level 3. Should the installation be completed by a non-qualified person then the guarantee may be
considered invalid.

Do not use tapered threaded adaptors or excessive thickness of sealing
tape as this may damage the valve body and result in a
concealed leak within the wall cavity.

 

If they repaired it once you would think they would get it right the second time.
If it turns out to be the same type of fracture then the installer is likely at fault.

And a fracture like that could manifest itself long after the installation if the stresses were put there by the installer by using a tapered adaptor.
Heating and cooling could be the catalyst that precipitates the fracture.

 

http://www.crosswater.co.uk/files/KH01_1501RC_installation.pdf

It can withstand a static pressure of 10 bar so before it was concealed in the wall, a hydrostatic pressure test should have been carried out.
8 bar would be enough imo.
So before its buried again you need to ensure they carry out a test.

 

Not sure why 0mm was used as a thickness 3 times though.

 

Yes Chips, especially when they have rounds to 3 decimal places on another figure.

i take it the test was not independent and carried out by the manufacture>?

 

Yes, that looks weird.

What I'd assumed they were trying to say was that the actual measured thickness of this fitting's body was "0mm" different from the manufacturer's production figures. Ie not only was it within tolerance, but was no different from the 'central' figure. But that can't be true as - re-reading it - they say the wall thickness is more than the manufacturer's recommended.

But that's only a guess - they are very lax with their figures throughout...

Wry: Blimey, so excessive use of sealing tape can damage the valve body? Does that apply to PTFE? Jeepers

(And I got my parallel and tapered t'wrong way around.)

Anyhoo - it's gonna be fun sorting this out.

That report doesn't claim to have identified the cause - it's all speculation and "It's our belief". It could be correct, or it could be wrong.

Caroline, could you confirm please - the replacement shower unit, did that have a similar crack in it? Is that where the water is coming from on the second occasion too?

If so, that would suggest that the builder is too heavy-handed. Although it could also suggest an inherent casting fault in a number of units.

I have to say, I have never ever cracked a brass fitting regardless of how hard I tightened it or how much PTFE tape I've used!

What are plumber's gut feelings about this? Massively excessive over-tightening or a casting design flaw?

 

Your problem here, Caroline, is that if the builder genuinely believes it cannot be his fault - he's fitted plenty of brass-bodied shower mixers with no issues, and has installed this Bathstore model in the exact same way - then you will have to put the onus of proof on to him to suggest otherwise.

The Bathstore report is not proof at all - it is Bathstore's 'best guess'. And one which will always try and find the result this way...

For a proper assessment, an independent specialist would need to check the unit. And he would compare the earlier results with this second faulty unit.

Again - is the second unit cracked in the same place?

Looks like your options are to; (1) keep pressing your case, making a nuisance of yourself, hoping that one or other backs down and sorts it for you, (2) Give one of them - probably the builder - an ultimatum; sort it or I'll get someone else to do so and sue you for the costs (which would then leave the onus on the builder to pursue Bathstore) or (3) Take the units (the current unit plus the old report) to an independent assessor for investigation - and then sue whoever was at fault here (add the assessor's costs to your claim), or (4) make it an insurance claim.

Or (5) something else.

 

I managed to do this a long time ago (when I was less experiences) the brass nut on a compression fitting cracked.

 

Och, you complete hard bar steward, you...

 

Only many years later I understood how olives worked, and that excessive force wasn't required, thought tighter the better

Did hear the nut go 'crack'.

The Op mentions its the second time this has happened. What happened with the problem first time round, did the plumber cover the cost?