Where to buy lime putty mortar

You might have to make your own.

 

This might be of general interest.

http://www.mikewye.co.uk/index.htm

AM

 

Are you sure that you need a lime mortar.Have any other houses in your terrace been pointed using this , or experienced problems with a cement mix ?

 

http://www.bleaklow.co.uk/index.html

 

Almost certainly you would need hydraulic limes as using opc mortars would be catastrophic, and would destroy the stone, particularly if it is a softer stone like sandstone, which lime strength to use is another consideration as there are NHL1 NHL2 and NHL3... each for individual stonework, check out this place

http://www.traditionallime.com/

 

Almost certainly you would need hydraulic limes as
using opc mortars would be catastrophic, and would
destroy the stone
A slight exageration there Robbo.
I live in an area where most buildings are sandstone and all have sand/cement pointing there is no sign of the stone being destroyed
While a lime mortar may be needed in some (rare) situations in most cases a cement mix is fine

 

You could not be further off the mark if you tried yorkshire boy, and simply because in your ignorance...no offence intended...you are not aware of the properties of lime mortars in comparison to opc mortars and the detremental effects that occur to, and in particular to softer types of stone, when hard cement mortars are used. The natural drying process of stone and brick occurs through the joints which happens naturally with lime but when the joint is of a harder composition than the stone, water is trapped behind the stone and can not naturally disperse in short this causes a gradual decay in the stone or the brick or spalling.....all caused by the wrong use of mortars by builders who know no better or simply dont give a damn. Modern materials are not of such a yielding composition as were yester years materials which (modern) naturally complement the use of portland cement mortars.

 

You could not be further off the mark Robbo. I am well aware of the properties of lime/opc mortars.
According to your reply all bricklaying or masonry work should use lime mortar or it is incorrect,why is cement mortar still used then ?
Brick and stone does not dry through the joints only.Dip a brick or stone in water and watch it dry out its not rocket science
Stone does not decay when wet it has been in the ground for millions of years with water trapped in it
No offence taken

 

Well of course it has been in the ground for millions of years but then it is quarried and dressed and used for construction. This does not mean it will stay in its current form for a few million more years does it?
The use of opc in todays construction as I stated is compemented by modern materials as the brick used is stronger than the mortar, but problems arise when hard cement mortars is used to repoint a traditional wall because the shallow depth of of hard cement mortar at the surface is rigid whilse the body of the wall behind is flexible. Any movement which occurs introduces stress in the narrow bands of rigid mortar which is only relieved by the failure of the stone...the brick ...or the mortar . As the stone or brick is usually less hard than the cement it is this that will fail.
As a rule you should allways use the original match of material.
Stone decay is by the use of impermeable opc mortars. Limes as bedding joints are permeable and allow for a route for the passage of mortar from the core of the wall to the surface where it evaporates. Cement mortars trap moisture within the fabric causing crystallisation in the stone around the mortar joints as there is no permeable escape. This water can start to condense in cold weather encourageing all manner of other damp related problems. I could go on but I am sure you get the picture and it is disturbing that those views you hold are shared by many proffessionals and the practitioners who are charged with the care and repair of much of our old building stock

 

That should read ...Limes as bedding joints are permeable and allow for the route for the passage of WATERfrom the core of the wall!

 

My views are formed from experience not from looking at websites
The original question was about a 150 year old stone terrace.There are countless such buildings in this country and all which are re pointed will have a sand/cement mortar. According to your views this will be causing stone decay throughout the land.
Stone does not decay through being saturated with water
Stone does not decay full stop
It is the action of frost,erosion,or chemicals(mainly salt)that wears the stone.
I agree that on an old building a traditional lime mortar is a good idea but in my opinion on a sound stone wall opc pointing is fine

 

Then clearly your experiences are limited,and your discernment of theese issues ill conceived and inaccurate if you truly believe as you clearly state that "there are countless such buildings throughout the land and all of which are repointed will have a sand/cement mortar"
There is an infinite amount of building stone much of which will perish over time,So to state that stone does not decay full stop is preposterous. Stone decay is a major problem in vast amounts of building stock a problem which is compounded, when after 150 years they are repaired with inapropriate materials.
Lime mortars have been around for thousands of years wheras opc cements were only invented in the mid 1800's.
I hope you are never invited to repair any description of listed property....I can imagine the scene " Allright lads, empty the van of that B& Q bagged sand and knock up some 3:1 gobbo and lets get this grade 1 listed building repointed before those fruitcakes from the heritage society come along and stop us.....Or do they encourage this kind of vandalism Y.B. as your previous statements would testify to.
For ther record I am not advocateing the use of lime putties ad hoc, but merely by useing a degree of acumen each individual project should be taken on its merits and appropriate actions taken upon reflection of what is suitable. There are many who advocate the use of limes in almost every conceivable instance, a fad propogated by eccentrics and over enthusiastic hair brained morons.
The facts are, there are times when differing materials are essential and the ability to recognise when and how are crucial, to dismiss lime putties almost out of hand and insist that lets just point everything up in gobbo is astonishingly naieve.
For the record I am not a Charley Farley Clone with a mountain of self confessd literature to draw extracts from with virtually no comprehension of what my comments mean. I have renovated a considerable number of old buildings in my time and allways with care, attention and in a befitting and considerate manner so speak from many years of experience and not ..."Well they all do it this way around our parts. You really should go and appreciate some old and well preserved and maintained buildings and see for yourself that gobbo is not the be all and end all answer to every ill.

 

Robbo. Are we talking about a standard 150 year old stone terrace house ? There are thousands + local to me.
I have never come across one which has been repointed with a lime putty mix.
If you think that that all the stone in these houses will decay because of the pointing fair enough we will have to agree to disagree
I can just picture the scene when you and your lads turn up at some old dears stone cottage with perfectly sound cement pointing "OOOH you wanna get that pointing chopped out love the stones gonna decay any minute,I,ll just go dig a pit and slake some lime"

As I said before there is nothing wrong with a lime mortar but you are scaremongering by saying an old stone building pointed with opc is unacceptable

Im sorry to repeat myself but you said opc pointing trapped water in the stone causing it to decay.Stone does not decay if it is wet, put a stone underwater and it will be preserved forever

I,m getting the impression that down your way an old stone building is a rarity.If you took a trip round my way(gods own county)you would see that most buildings are sandstone ,all sand cement pointed ,no decay,disaster etc etc.

We could meet up I,ll show you how to mix a decent bucket of gobbo up

 

You seem to be very selective in what you choose to refer back to with regards to my comments. I have stated that I do not advocate wholesale use of lime mortars simply for the sake of it, so without wanting to repeat myself I advise you read and fully digest my previous comments.
Your entire thesis seems to rest on the absurd testimony that stone simply does not in any manner decay,(theese are your very own words) therefor useing an opc mortar can not in any possible manner have a detremental effect on stone. A quick google on "STONE DECAY" throws up one million nine hundred thousand + reasons to throw just the slightest amount of dicredit upon your theory.

Cryptofluorescense is a process whereby salts crystallise within stone, when passage of moisture is restricted by impervious mortar, the moistures trapped fill the fine pores of the stone. As amounts of crystallised salts are left in ever increasing concentrations the stone particularly arond the joints will begin to disintegrate.
But according to you this simply can not happen so clearly millions of people are wrong and you are right.

Stone decay does not manifest itself over night so simply because "they all do it like this up our way" is not a convincing argument for repointing sand stone in gobbo.

Down my way old stone buildings are in abundance...West coast of Ireland.

 

NAF, you are mixing your terms: stay away from Lime Putty its got nothing to do with pointing. Lime mortar was the traditional material for pointing stone and brickwork. Modern remedial practice has reverted to using lime mortar after many years of using a sand lime cement mix.
I have occasionally seen even a light cement mix damage brickwork .A strong cement mix can be fatal and blow off the brick face due to building compression and/or expansion and contraction.
It's simple enough to mix your own pointing mortar, whatever the mix, any builders yard will supply you with the correct sand and lime.

 

Nope Benny you are wrong ...I am wrong and squillions of us are wrong, however Y.B has rectified an errenous falsehood and we can all rest easy in our beds at night.

 

When i said that stone does not decay I meant in the sense that a piece of wood would decay over time
I followed this point by pointing out that it is the action of frost,erosion or chemicals(salt) which wears the stone.
You stated in one of your first replies that with an opc pointing water was trapped in the stone causing it to decay
Could you state in your next reply if you think that if stone is kept saturated with water it will decay ,if you answer truthfully this is obviously not the case.As I said previously stone is in this condition in the ground
I have said before there is nothing wrong with lime mortars and i appreciate and prefer in many cases the old techniques
Maybe your location explains our differing views over stone erosion(decay).I can imagine that on the coast salt spray would cause stone damage and if this soaked into the stone the pointing may have an effect. I have seen stone eroded by roadsalt in my area but never seen any problems from pointing
Next time you are out and about Robbo keep your eyes open and have a look around you must have plenty of cement pointed walls to look at do you really see the decay you are warning against caused by the pointing
I trust the evidence of my own eyes before what other so called other experts say .Perhaps you should do the same

As for Bennys post i fail to see how he decided that cement had damaged the brick.Bricks are often damaged,spalled,blown faced,usualy by frost or damp.I have seen this countless times in bricks which haven't been pointed

 

I have just stumbled on this old thread whilst researching Lime pointing. I am restoring an old stone house in Yorkshire which has suffered some terrible damage to the soft stone because some dufus pointed it using HUGE weather struck and similar bands of OPC.

To Yorkshireboy (if you are still around) What is Frost if it is not frozen water?

I shall be repointing in Lime and just need to find what type I need and where to find some near to Leeds/Bradford...

 

Take a look here.